Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Guys, uh, as I said on our other podcast, if you are tuning into this, expecting, like, some recap of the election and what this means, I promise we'll get to it. But I can't do it this week. Uh, I need seven days. So, um, if you're like me, you can't hop online, you can't listen to another of your favorite podcasts without it being some type of election recap. And I just don't have that in me this week. So we're gonna stick with the original plan. We're going to release part two of our, uh, series with Danny Andrews where he shares some really good tips on how to advance your career and negotiate as a high income earner. So I would just ask that you be like me and take a break from it for seven days, Listen to this podcast, watch a romantic comedy, go get some lunch at your favorite restaurant, and just decompress for a little bit. I hope you enjoy this episode. We'll get into the nuts and bolts of what's to come in the weeks ahead, but this Friday, let's just focus on something else for half an hour. See you next week.
Let's get some money from New Money, New Problems. It's the New Money New Problems podcast, a show for successful professionals searching for the tools they need to navigate financial opportunities and obstacles they've never seen.
Negotiating compensation, purchasing your first investment property, Helping your family with money. The highs and lows of entrepreneurship. New money brings new problems that require new solutions. Join us as we work through them together.
I'm Brenton Harrison and this is the New Money New Problems podcast.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Hello, my name is Brenton Harrison of New Money, New Problems and your host for the New Money New Problems podcast. If you are looking on your screen and saying, hey, these two people look familiar? It's because we are the same who were with you last week. I am back with Danny Andrews, and in last week's episode, we shared his money story where he went from, uh, an early career in law to being general counsel in companies in this country, international firms, and just talked about some of the things that he learned along the way. And in this episode, we want to lean into some of that advice because as I told you, this is one of those people where when I say, trust me, this is a person whose advice you should listen to. This is a person whose advice you should listen to. So, Danny, welcome back.
[00:02:29] Speaker C: Hi. Thanks. Thanks for having me again. I'm excited about, um, this discussion.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we have all these themed episodes. We have these what's in the news segments we have my money stories and this is what we call an ask the expert ah session. So we're gonna get into some of the things when we talk about, um, job negotiations and advancing yourself. So are you ready to get started?
[00:02:54] Speaker C: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: All right, cool. The first question that I have for you is we often come across people with whom we work or just asking questions about, you know, negotiating for different jobs or the job hunt. Uh, and I have some questions for you about how you would go about or recommend someone go about first negotiating compensation. What are some of the factors that go into that discussion for what you ask for at a job hunt?
[00:03:22] Speaker C: Yeah, and listen, take all of this with a grain of salt. It's worked for me, um, uh, more often than not.
Um, but I think data is critical. And so I think when you're going into a situation where you're asking someone for something specifically money, um, I think you want to have some data to support why it is, um, that you think you should get this money, right, this amount of money or whatever the thing is. And so I tend to do like some market research, right, Kind of seeing what are similar jobs. And there are plenty of sites out there, uh, whether it's, you know, Glassdoor or, you know, and the like where you can go out and kind of see like what are people in this title, this career banned, what are they making, what are the perks? I would look at that, I would look at other job descriptions, uh, for jobs that are similar and see what compensation they're quoting, um, in the job description. Because I think that can help you, particularly if it's a similarly situated gig and a similarly situated industry. I think it's good information to have. So if your role that negotiating has a band of like whatever, 100 to 150, but you see a very similar job that's like 150 to 2, right? Like now in my mind that opens up the discussion and say, well at the very least if the initial gig is 1 to 150, we're not starting anywhere lower than 150 in my mind. And here's why, right? And so I think it's important to be able to point to those data points. Um, I think it's important to also think through non cash compensation, right? So listen, your cash is king. I'm never going to say like, don't try to get as much money as you can.
And there are times where companies are just limited, right? And you're going to somehow like, you Know, cap out. Um, and so once you've gotten to the place where you feel like that's kind of as much as you're going to get from a cash perspective, then I would start bringing in some of your analysis around non cash compensation. So things like equity, um, stocks like flexibility. Thinking through your title, I do some career coaching, um, from time to time. And one of the things I always say to my clients are like, well, what about the title? And why I think the title is important is that one in the actual, in that current role, you want a title that gives you sort of the gravitas or the, like the ostensible like authority to do the job. Right? So for example, if you are doing um, I don't know, let's call it IT work, uh, and your current title, the proposed title is IT Coordinator. Well, if there's no one else in the organization really doing it, could you ask to be the IT manager? Right. Um, the it, you know, uh, the head of it. Right. Like start thinking through like, what are the other ways that, you know, we could characterize this role? So that one, I've got enough sort of respect at this gig, but really always thinking in my mind to the next gig, which is if I'm trying to move to another higher level gig, is it more impressive for me to come with a resume that says I was IT coordinator or is it more um, impressive to say that I was the IT manager or the global head of IT or whatever the things are. So I think always ensure that you're thinking about the title. Um, then I think I would look to the job description or whatever metric you're using or they're using to evaluate you and see like what gaps exist like either in your skillset, right? And if it's a situation where you're already in the job or you're trying to negotiate conflict, then I think you may want to have said, uh, you may want to say something like, hey, well I've done this certificate in privacy or data management and I think that the industry, you know, rewards that. And I think it's important that you know, we consider this because I am doing this for the company, right? So actually having some skills that they're asking for, um, to help justify, you know, getting more, um, and I would also look at, and I said this earlier, like look at job descriptions for similar jobs just to kind of, you know, level set. And then lastly I would say just always counter, right? I think it is a, uh, it is a negotiation, you know, so and if they really want you. They're not going to, like, say no on your first counter, or they're not going to rescind an offer because you counter. So I think counter, counter, but counter responsibly. And I think the way to do that is to have the data and to have some, like, relevant industry trends. Um, you know, to support your argument.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: I would, I would. I gotta stop you there, because to me, you said always counter. And I cannot express how many times we've had conversations with people who are, you know, in their annual. And, uh, their company will tell them, here's the cost of living increase that we're giving you, here's the equity compensation, and they just accept it, and I'll tell them, counter. And there is this fear that, like, if I counter, they're going to fire me. So, like, how do you establish that level of confidence? And is it just having the data to feel like the counter is responsible? Where does that come from?
[00:09:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, some of it is like an art and not a science. Right? And you sort of done it a few times and you kind of read the room. But I would always, you know, in a countering situation, be clear that you think that the current role, the current offer is thoughtful, it is compelling. You can appreciate that, you know, they have done, you know, what they could initially with the information that they had to bring me, you know, the most, you know, compelling package that they could. And I'm grateful for that.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:52] Speaker C: So I think you want to make sure that you're massaging the conversation in that way and not just like, this isn't good enough. Right. And now this is what I want. Um, I then also think you've got to think about, um, what's in it for them, right? And so, like, if you are going to counter, like, be thinking through, like, okay, what's going to be like the ROI for them. So if I'm saying, like, listen, I went and got a privacy or data management certificate, um, and now I can manage that for us. I see that we outsource this to a company and we pay them $100,000 a year to do this thing. Um, I would be happy to take that on in house for some level of a bump. I'm not suggesting the 100,000 and then have a number in your mind, right, whether it's a 10,000 bump, a 20,000 bump, whatever that is. Um, but I think, again, doing so responsibly and thinking about what's in it for them and in that scenario, what's in it for them is I can do this for you cheaper and in house so you can manage it better. Um, and we can track things better. Um, we could pivot more quickly, um, and be more responsive to the business needs if I'm managing this internally versus some sort of outsourced vendor. Um, but those are some of the things I'd be thinking about when countering.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: So I just want to give you a heads up. Ah, you use the term counter responsibly. I'm 100% stealing that.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: It's yours.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Just quote me liberally.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: No, I think you gotta do it. So in life, yeah, but we're only talking about business now. But in life, I think you counter.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: One of my favorite phrases is if you don't ask, the answer is no.
[00:11:41] Speaker C: But I love, really a closed mouth doesn't get fed in like, you know, today's, you know, jargon. Yeah.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: So I'm going to use that term and it leads into something else because. And I've shared this with you, you are the person who first, uh, in our conversations talked about the importance of the org chart when you're considering a new position in terms of your adamants of understanding the org chart, who reports to who, what the culture is like. Can you share why you feel it is that important to understand the org chart before you accept a position?
[00:12:17] Speaker C: Yeah, because it's really great question. It's really hard to. I mean we talked earlier about like understanding the culture of the company and sort of the inner workings of the company. It's really hard to do that without actually like experiencing the company. Right. And the things that people are at the company are going to say to you may, you know, may or may not, you know, be consistent with what your lived experience would be, um, at the company. And so I find that the org chart, the organizational chart, if it's a good organizational chart and you know, comprehensive, um, it's the one place where the company is saying, this is how we manage the company. Right. Like this is the organization, this is what people are doing. Here's how we think about this role vis a vis this role. Um, and so I think it really does give you a sense of like how the company thinks about management and particularly management of people. Right. People, resources. So for example, and so then understanding like where this role, this new role would fit in that. Right. So for example, if I'm the general counsel, I'm looking for a general counsel role and I ask for the org chart and I see that the general counsel reports into HR as opposed to reports into the CEO that communicates to me, at least initially, that the access to the CEO, the appearance that the role is a part of the C suite and will have a seat at the table and will have the ability to really impact change. Uh, in my mind those are two very different paths. Right. Because if I'm thinking through legal and business strategy, I want to be talking to the CEO. I want to be talking to the CEO. I don't necessarily want to be reporting into or um, you know, uh, directly to the HR person who might not fully understand what we're talking about. So I think that can help sort of communicate like how the company thinks about this role. Right. Um, and that might be important.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Well, let's discuss the inverse because you said if they have a well developed organized chart, organizational chart, excuse me, what would it communicate to you? Is it a non starter or is it a place of opportunity if they don't really have an org chart?
[00:14:48] Speaker C: Yeah, and I've been in both of those situations. And so not having an org chart can also be a blessing. Right. Because it could mean any number of things. One is they're just disorganized and maybe that's some data that you should assess. But there's also a world where they're fluid and they're open to suggestions and there are fewer barriers from where you are now to where you could potentially end up at the company because there aren't these kind of rigid rules and steps. And so I've been in situations, particularly in like startup type tech situations, where there isn't always a well thought out, you know, fleshed out org chart. And I think for what they do have, um, you know, I think you work with that. But if they don't have it, then I think you start asking questions around like, well, who would you report into, um, and why? Right. And because there's no org chart, then I think you've got the opportunity to make the case as to why you believe that what is in the best interest of the company is you reporting into X versus Y. Right. In this example. And then just to go back to the org chart, I think that um, you should ask to see it. Um, most times you're under some sort of NDA. All right. Um, if you, if companies are sharing, you know, information with you at the, you know, at the stage where they're just about to give you an offer, and if they haven't put, um, you under an NDA or non disclosure agreement, I would say I'm willing to sign, you know, a Limited NDA to be able to access this information. Because this is really what's going to. This is going to be a tool that I'll use to assess, like, whether this is the right opportunity for you and for me to be quite honest. Right. And so I think don't be afraid to ask for that. I think sometimes in like an interview, uh, situation or where you feel like you need the job, you know, you're afraid to do things like counter. You're afraid to, you know, ask for too much information. All they can say is no. Right? And then you're, you know, I think especially if you do it in a way that is professional and respectful, I, um, can't imagine that that turns anyone off. I will give you a story. Um, in one of the roles that I took, um, they started out the process kind of like relatively, um, it was a good salary, but it was lower than I was interested in. And the perks and the different things and the titles and all of that. And I really just wrote out like a term sheet and said, like, you know, essentially, like, here's what you've offered. Here's what I, you know, here's what I think, you know, here's what I'd like. Here's my counter, whatever. And we went through that process for a couple of weeks and I. So I ultimately took the job. And I will tell you that the CEO came to me the first week and said, um. He was talking about my salary and my comp and all that. He was like, if you didn't. He was like, you really. You know, I'm paraphrasing now, but like, you know, took us for a ride or whatever. Like, you really, like, you know, got what you wanted from us. Like, these were some tough negotiations. Um, but he said, but if you hadn't done that, I would have been concerned as to whether you had the ability to be my lawyer. Because the way in which you were negotiating for yourself lets me know that that's just how you're going to approach negotiations for us. Um, and so, in fact, I was more. The fact that you did that allowed me to open up sort of the bands and say, no, I think this guy does deserve X or Y or Z. So I think there's a world where if you do it in a professional, kind of thoughtful way, um, it's not looked upon in a negative way. And in fact, it's likely looked upon in a positive way because you're being strategic, man.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: That's powerful.
I would never thought about it from that perspective. But it's almost like if I can, uh, put this energy towards someone else, I'll be in good shape.
[00:18:57] Speaker C: This is the New Money New Problems podcast, a show for successful professionals searching for the tools they need to navigate financial opportunities and obstacles they've never seen.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: We'll be right back.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Are you wondering what new money problems you might be overlooking in your financial life? If so, we've got great news. We've crafted the New Money New Problems gap Finder to identify potential weaknesses in your finances in areas ranging from budgeting, investments, insurance, and even the threat your extended family's finances could pose to your household.
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[00:19:54] Speaker C: You're listening to the New Money New Problems podcast. Subscribe now at new money, new problems.com welcome back.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: I want to. I want to paint a picture of, uh, two career stages for you.
I come across people who, in my mind, kind of fall into two camps when it comes to looking for new opportunities.
There are those who are in a position or a level in their career where finding the next opportunity is really still up to them. Right. There's not many people approaching them. It's not that they're not talented. It's not that they're not skilled. It's just where I am in my career. If I want a new opportunity, I still have to go look for it. I still gotta go through all the rounds. And then the second camp are people where it's like, I have reached a level where people approach me, and it's more a matter of filtering out which are the best opportunities. We're going to touch on both of those camps, but I want to start with the group who are still responsible for finding their next, uh, opportunity.
What are, um, some tools and tips that you would give for that person who is like, I want something better. Nobody's calling me, asking about it. How do. How do they go about advancing themselves?
[00:21:07] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, and, like, I love the question, and particularly about the two groups, because I feel like at some point in my career, I've been in both of the groups, you know, m. And I think that, um, for the group that's, you know, doing the. Do, you know, doing diy, um, in their search, I think there are a bunch of different things. I would suggest one, um, I think there's a networking piece. Right. Again. Getting out there, meeting people, getting in front of the recruiters or the HR people at these conferences, things like that, really get out there and differentiate yourself, uh, from other people. Um, there are tons of recruiting firms out there. So first of all, I would make sure that you're on LinkedIn and um, that you're active on LinkedIn and that you are making comments on LinkedIn or posting articles or different things like that. Particularly, you know, if you want to be seen as an expert in a, you know, in a particular area, lots of people, business people are using LinkedIn for that, for that reason. And I, so I think you should be doing that more. But also there are tons of recruiting firms out there and on LinkedIn you can see like if you go looking for a job, you can see like which recruiting firm, whether it's Major, Lindsay in Africa or whatever, the. That's the name of a pretty big, um, recruiting firm, global recruiting firm. And sometimes what I've done is they all have their own websites and you can sign up to be in their portal, right? And in their portal you fill out your profile, you add your resume and so on and so forth. And what is important about that and what has proven to be successful, um, is that when they are looking for a candidate, the first place they're going to look is their portal. It's not LinkedIn. They're going to just search their portal. And so if you're not in their portal, you know, you're not coming up. So I, early on, I mean, I was on, there were like 15, you know, big recruiting firms and I just set up accounts in each of them and put my resume, um, in each of them and then connected with a person, you know, at the, at the company. And they're usually gracious enough to give you a 15 minute kind of call if, you know, um, if you ask for it. So I would think signing up, you know, getting your information and your resume and stuff in those portals, networking, um, also I would think look at other JDs and this is a theme or job descriptions and kind of see like the job that you want. What are they, what are the skills they're requiring, right. And do you have them? And if you do, great, and make sure your Resume and your LinkedIn page and all that is really like, you know, highlighting that. And if you don't take some time to try to like fill those gaps, right? Because, um, it's insanity to think you're going to, you know, experience something new by doing the exact same thing. Right. And so I would think, like, what are the ways that you that you can make yourself a more compelling, um, a more compelling candidate. And so I think a mix of those things is what I've done, um, and what I would, you know, suggest, um, that someone who's kind of going it alone, uh, explore doing.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Okay, well, now let's go to the second camp then. You are a person who's reached a level of status in your career where you are getting approached.
Um, how do you know when something has come up that you need to pay attention to?
[00:24:46] Speaker C: Um, a couple of things, I think. One, it's like, how. Who brought it to, like, who was the messenger? You know what I mean? Was it like some, you know, email listserv, uh, where no one really sort of, they didn't know that they were sending it to me specifically. Was it like, who's. Is it some recruiter kind of cold calling going through? Is it a lower level recruiter? Is it an.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: Like.
[00:25:10] Speaker C: I would try to think of like, where is this coming from so that I understand whether it's at like a level that it kind of makes sense, you know, for me to be even, you know, considering, because if you haven't presented it to me in a way that feels professional and compelling, it's unlikely that the job is going to be compelling enough for me, right? Like, because part of it for me is in how you're like, bringing it to me, if that makes sense.
Um, and then I think one of the things I've been doing is like, I have a list. I have like a must haves list, you know? Um, and the cool thing about that is that in this scenario, if you've already got a job, right? Then if you don't get this job, then it's, you know, you can still pay your bills, right? And so what I do is like, I ask for the things that I want, right? And I'm upfront about it, right? Where, uh, instead of maybe doing it on the back end strategically, where I think I'll ask for this after I feel like they really want me, right? I think in the role in the. In the scenario where I am being approached by people and wanting to see if it's worth it, I just ask for what I want. I want to understand what comp is. I want to understand location and flexibility. I want to understand, you know, is there money for like speaking engagements and different things? I want to understand, do I have a team? Do I have the will, I have the budget to build a team, like, uh, and asking for all of those things, right? Because I think, why leave if you know you're not going to be getting some, if not all of what, you know, you feel like you're missing in the current role. And I tend to find what I have tended to find. And this goes back to the negotiation.
Um, very rarely have I been in a situation, if at all, where I've asked for something and someone said no. Um, right. Um, that doesn't mean that they give me, ah, a full yes. Do you know what I mean? But I'd like to say that anything, um, north of a no is a yes. Do you know what I mean? So like, okay, so we're moving the ball forward. These are incremental wins. So maybe I don't get, you know, ah, whatever. $100,000. This sounds so tone deaf in a way. $100,000, um, signing bonus. But do they give me a $20,000 signing bonus and help me with relocation expenses? Right. So I think, you know, really kind of ask for what you want and again, do it in a way that's thoughtful, where you're thinking about what's in the best interest of the company as well as me, um, and try to get as much as you can in my mind, in that scenario, the scenario where you don't need the job and people are coming after you, I think you should just make sure that the next thing captures more of the things that you want in your, like, life work balance than you have currently.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: There's the final topic I have for you, and it's another area. I don't like the term give people their flowers. It feels overused. But giving you your credit to the fact that this is a term that you've mentioned multiple times that I just don't hear stated as frequently, and that is negotiating your exit.
Uh, uh, most of the time when I deal with people in corporate America, they are negotiating for their new job. Once they have it, they go tell their employer, hey, I'm required to give you 30 days notice. Here's my 30 days or 60 days. Here's my 60 days, right. What does it mean to negotiate an exit with your current employer? And how does that look?
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Yeah, um, so I think there are a couple of things, right? You can do it on the front end, right. Or you can do it on the back end. Right. Um, on the front end. And first of all, it may never. It's not always possible, right? So if you're giving your notice, you know, that may be it, right. And you're going to get whatever, you know, money you're entitled to for the Notice period. But in the world I like to think that all things are possible and that all things are negotiable. And so in my, for example um, compensation agreement on the front end, right where you have the ability to do this, I would build in some sort of payment, um, scheme if you're terminated before a certain period of time. Right. Or if you're terminated without cause. Right. Like things like that where it's like if, if I'm terminated without cost, you know, I'm entitled to payment for X period of time or whatever those things are. I think also negotiate, you know, you know, um, career placement assistance, A, um, professional coach. Like you can add a lot of these things into your offer letter, I mean into your uh, employment agreement, such that they're already there. And so you kind of have those rights if certain conditions are met. So for example, I've had in the past where I say whether I'm terminated or leave on my own volition, I'm going to be paired with your current professional coaching and job searching company for six months. I'm going to require X or Y or Z. And again that's not really costing the company anything because they probably already have these people under contract and things like that. But thinking about that upfront I think is something that we don't often do and I didn't do very early on in my career because I thought who am I to be asking for, you know, negotiated amounts in the event these certain things happen? Um, and then on the back end, I think it depends on the situation, right? Like is there a world where either they're requiring you to not, you know, work for competitors or is there a world where you're leaving because the company is engaging in behavior that you think is either unlawful or unreasonable or whatever just doesn't fit with the way in which you want to run your life? Um, or you may have claims against the company, whether it's discrimination claims or sexual harassment claims, you name it. Right now I don't think we should be making up claims, right? Um, I think these should be like legitimate things. But I think if you are going to leave the company and you feel like you're almost being forced out because it's such a hostile or uncomfortable work environment, I think that is a great opportunity to say I'm leaving and I want to negotiate an exit package. Because what they don't want you to do is to now go out and disclose whatever issues you might be having or grievances you might be having with the company or whatever those Things are. And there's a cost to that, right? And I think sometimes we're like, oh my God, should I do that? And I'm just saying to you, like, I see a lot of people doing what I'm saying here, and most of them don't look like us, right? And so I'm like, companies expect this, um, but we're not doing it enough because we're afraid or we don't know that we can do it or whatever, you know, whatever the things are. Um, and so I think in that world, I think you start compiling whether they're, what are the claims or whether they want to have you sign an NDA or something that you're not obligated to sign. I would put it to them to say, you know, I'm happy to sign this, but we will need to be talking about some sort of additional compensation and leave it to them, you know, in those instances to kind of come back to you, because it'll let you know, they might come back and be like, there's no way, right? Or they may come back and say, we've thought about this, we think it's X. And if they come back and they say, we thought about us and we think this is X, this to me is a really good, clear indication that they think that there's something here worth paying for. Um, and so now the negotiations begin, right? And so we go back to always counter, right? So we're thinking through like, okay, this is what you've proposed, but here are some, here are some other data points I think that are not considered or somehow incorporated into this offer. So I think negotiating your exit is critical if you can do it, particularly the more senior you are in your career. And part of what the negotiating or exit also does, it's not always just about money. It's about how are we going to deal with this publicly. Are we going to say I was terminated? Are we going to say that I left on my own accord? Are we going to do some sort of joint press release? Are we going to make a, uh, statement to the whole company? I think you can really navigate and control that narrative. Um, in a, in an, in an exit negotiating scenario, that is next level strategy.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: And it's something that, you know, even if it's something that falls short of like a claim, even just hostile workforce where I've seen people where it's like, no, you didn't just leave, you left because of this manager or you left because of this person. So, you know, have that be considered so that is a tier above what most people do, which is why this is an Ask the Expert series, and this definitely fell to that definition. So, Danny, I want to thank you for your time times two and being a guest times two on the New Money, New Problems podcast.
[00:34:34] Speaker C: It was my honor. Um, I'm happy to come back anytime. I hope that my little nuggets that I've learned along my journey have been helpful here. Um, you know, and I don't know how you deal with, you know, sharing, um, information, but if there are people, you know, your followers or your listeners have questions or, you know, want to ask anything kind of directly, I'm. I'm conceptually open to that and happy to discuss how to do that in a way that's consistent with how you run your business.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: We'll share what you're happy, uh, having.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: Shared, so we'll figure something out. How about that? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:11] Speaker C: Cool.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: All right. Thank you.
[00:35:13] Speaker C: Okay. All right. Thank you. Take care.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: Let's get some money from New Money, New Problems. This was the New Money, New Problems podcast, a show for successful professionals searching for the tools they need to navigate financial opportunities and obstacles they've never seen.
